Antique weapons

[tento125]

 So right now, I'm working on a tier 3 profile, a Lieutenant First grade to be exact, and would it be possible to have him use a Colt 45? The justification for him to use it would be that it's a family kind of thing, passed down from generation to generation and now it has been passed down to him. So yeah, would it be possible to have him use it?

[David]

Definitely not unheard of. A lot of people use older weapons. That said, a Colt 45 would be essentially useless against covenant foes. But I will allow it yes. Im interested in seeing how this pans out.

[MrKill]

Not to mention, over the hundreds of years it has existed, manufactures would have stopped producing those parts. It would have to be a display item, not a combat item, as that's the capacity older weapons have. Just my $0.02.

[David]

The only real use I could see for this is if he had a run in with a Jackal and all he had was the Colt. Maybe then. As I say though, I'd like to see how this pans out. But if its deemed too unrealistic, We may ask it taken out.

[tento125]

What about against grunts? would a .45 caliber bullet be efficient to penetrate grunt armor? And don't worry, I'm just planning on it being a form of a lucky charm. I'll explain more in my character profile thread (which is not anytime soon. School's opened.)

[David]

Not really, as grunts have rather thick hide. a .45 might penetrate, Likely won't. unless you got lucky and pulled off a shot damaging its mask or somehow igniting its methane tank. (Of which of course would be hilarious.)

[Faclan]

Sorry if the swooping isn't looked forward to buuuut;

Not useful? Why wouldn't it be? The .45 ACP cartridge was made to be a 'man-stopping' round in the early 1900's and even up to this day with modern high power loads and especially something like Hydra-Shok rounds it would be incredibly deadly to anything you shot. I mean it stops people well today, and people are still people in 500 years, and Unggoy and Kigs are slightly above and slightly below that general toughness level so would do good against them too. It would probably not penetrate armor that well as its a big fat bullet moving not-that-fast (which is one of the reasons the US Army changed to the Beratta 92f which fires 9mm as well as it being cheaper) but the .45 round was, as said, designed to stop a man. As such its not supposed to penetrate that deep as the goal of most larger pistol calibers is to have the bullet stop in the target and not go through them - delivering all its energy to the target to shove them backwards away from the shooter, 'man-stop'ing them in a sense.

Thats not to say they don't penetrate, as you can see here


But they don't penetrate as well as other kinds of pistol rounds (9mm has a reputation for penetrating well and the 5.7mm was designed specifically for penetration), a fun little side jaunt is that the Magnum rounds, being essentially .50 Action Expression with some explosive in them like we see in Halo, should also be crap at armor penetration as they are big flat bullets with a hollow core that is filled with boom. But on the whole a lot of bullets in Halo don't follow modern ballistics so moving on.

I've always been of the opinion that while we only see the .50 Magnums in Halo for handguns there has to be a civilian market for firearms as for example if you were a new shooter you would not want to start on something that heavy or loud. I'm sure 9mm pistols and a wide range of other guns are made for personal purchase just you won't see it in the UNSC when their .50 Cals are 'Good enough' - even if I have serious doubts all soldiers can fire that thing well. Here is a canon example of somthing not UNSC issue cropping up from the 5th issue of Halo Escalation;
As such I think it would be totally possible for 'older' styles of firearms to be out there in smaller sizes and calibers even if wern't a classic like the 1911 (I assume that is what is meant when you say Colt .45 (but if you mean a Colt Revolver in .45 Long Colt that would still be a classic which I'm about to discuss)) which many shooters today regard as one of the best pistol designs. I doubt that will change in 500 years so there would still probably be people making it and so getting replacement parts for that would probably be pretty easy. Easier than getting replacement parts than for example a Glock 17 500 years from now.


My thoughts, cheep cheep.

[David]

Well damn Faclan. Aren't you just the source of information

[Faclan]

Firearms are one of my favorite areas of study, even if I don't have one and probably won't ever get one. But thanks. Hope that helps

[David]

Well I know I learned something. So I'm curious how this will pan out

[Faclan]

As I am, just so long as it doesn't suddenly go popping Jelly shields in two shots it should be fine as it would be less powerful than the normal Magnum on both shield and flesh. But would still be accurate and deadly to unshielded targets, as shown in Escalation.

[David]

Huh. Never read Escalation. Have to find that and read it sometime.

[Faclan]

Its a pretty awesome comic series, some of the aliens get shown as dumb and a whole bunch of Kigs get killed but there's lots of sweet info in there as well. If you were curious the series has ended and here are the release dates for the volumes and the big collection if you didn't want to get all the issues separately;

Volume #1: October 8, 2014
Volume #2: April 21, 2015
Volume #3: September 9, 2015
Volume #4: March 22, 2016
Library Volume #1: May 11, 2016

[tento125]

Thanks faclan, so basically, no shield popping anytime soon with the m1911 (yes that was what I meant by a colt .45). I'm just planning on it to be a sort of lucky charm for my character (he's gonna be a lieutenant Junior Grade, I made a mistake in the first post) This comes to my second question: would bridge officers be allowed to carry hand guns? Cause there was an incident on the UNSC Midsummer's night where the ops lieutenant pulled out an m6 and shot the commander (Halo: The Cole Protocal) so it raises the question: is it allowed by regulations for bridge officers to carry handguns in case of boarding parties? Or that the ops lieutenant snuck it on board?

[MrKill]

I disagree with it being easy to find, or replace, especially since there are modern weapons on the market that are challenging to get replacement parts for. But, I suppose it doesn't really matter, I just think an aged 1911 wouldn't be a side arm seen used effectively. If it's used as a lucky charm, no harm done.

As for bridge officers carrying guns, yes; not only bridge officers, but crewmen and Marines as well carry them optionally it seems. When the Pillar of Autumn was first boarded, shortly after you leave the cryo bay you can see crewmen already shooting at Covenant boarders. Shortly after that you run through an armoury that's completely empty, yes, but before you do you have to go through a door that has an Elite standing behind it.

Not to mention, all Navy personnel are trained in the M6 series of magnums.

My Colonel carries his M6D in his hip holster while on a UNSC vessel, but his 'primary' weapons are in the armoury.

[edtosivaree]

1911's are...
A) incredibly simplistic. Probably more simple than anything in the Halo Lore ((I can't see the internals of an M6))
B) Capable of being converted to much larger rounds. I remember seeing a video advertising such a conversion for a high power magnum round. I can't find it anymore but I am almost positive that it was a 500 conversion. 500 = 12.7mm. I did find a 460 conversion, which while not quite as much mass, has pretty much the same impact due to the higher velocity. Not only that but you can shoot .45 out of it as well
C) near indestructible if you treat them right. One has been in my family since WWI, it was my great great Grandfathers and went to my Aunt ((Even though it was supposed to be mine >.>)). It still works fine even though she doesn't know how to use the damn thing.
D) I'm sure if you had plans, you could get one custom made or something? Even the conversion kits.

I really don't see how the 1911 can't be a viable weapon if the right steps are taken. I know it's not in canon, but we can do it in real life so *Shrug*

Conversion Video

[Cabel]

If I may give my opinion in the matter?

I don't see how an Colt .45 M1911 wouldn't work? You did express the Colt would be something your character holds onto, out of sentimental value, tradition and out of it being still capable of firing. I think that adds a bit of character depth.

Example: My Marine Captain, Captain Mark Seamus "Spade" Sorelson, purchased with out of his own pocket as a Sergeant a hard chrome-plated M6B .50 Cal Magnum and he's kept it with him since. It's in working order, and he maintains it. He wouldn't trade it out for the newer Magnums either, since it is a classic, and it's comfortable. His father had been a Detective in the Seattle Police Department, now since retired, and in a way it could be said that Mark wanted to have something that both reminded him of his father, and would keep him "safe".

I'm sure that the Colt .45 M1911 wouldn't exactly have the same kick as the larger M6 series, but as Faclan did explain (which I did appreciate, thanks, Faclan) the .45 Cal round was designed for stopping power. Even with a .50 Cal M6 Series, if it's against a shielded opponent it still carries a 50/50 chance depending on both where the shot is taken and if the Elite or Jackal isn't exactly aware.

Today, a Colt Dragoon or Colt Army Revolver or Peacemaker may be old but they're still sought after. The Revolver's design hasn't changed that much since the first introduction back in the 19th/early 20th centuries with the early revolvers requiring both the gunpowder-charge to be rammed into the chamber followed by the bullet itself and the use of a percussion cap to a more self-contained bullet without a percussion cap. I think the Colt .45 M1911 would be very justified in its use, and how your character has decided to keep it. He or she may not rely on it solely, with using an M6 Sidearm with the Colt as a back-up. If it works, it works.

[Seraph]

It's the 26th century. There is highly advanced machinery that exists that with the proper processing from a highly advanced AI with factory access will have no problem designing or recreating almost anything you can imagine. Components for making parts or replicating entire designs for primitive, simplistic fire arms is not problem to make.

The question is why and to what extent can it go?

There is an official line of smaller caliber firearms besides the m6 series. Which I can't seem to find on either of the wikis right this moment. And it wasn't the M40 they introduced in the Nightfall series or part of the M6 series. The Pocket Pistol could be anything so I'm not even going to include it. But it was a smaller caliber and it was commonly carried by crew and civilians prior to the Human-Covenant war that was found to have minimal effect against personal shielding and thus was swapped out in favor of the standard M6 from then on.

With the upscale in cartage sizes all across known handguns in this time period basically makes (our present day) modern 9mm firearms the new Derringer pistols of the 26th century. For the M1911 relic yeah its going to be low powered if having been left untampered besides replacement parts in comparison to whatever modern innovation there might have been for similar class weapons through the centuries.

[edtosivaree]

Seraph
With the upscale in cartage sizes all across known handguns in this time period basically makes (our present day) modern 9mm firearms the new Derringer pistols of the 26th century. For the M1911 relic yeah its going to be low powered if having been left untampered besides replacement parts in comparison to whatever modern innovation there might have been for similar class weapons through the centuries.

At the same time seraph, it's a gun. You can take any gun on the planet, and make look like a similar class of gun. Actually there are some handguns that can be modified to look like an assault rifle... Hell I saw someone make an AR-15 a bullpup with some 2x4's and saw blades

So this is where I present this question to everyone! Why not just have a custom order M6 to look like a 1911? There, every single problem was solved in that one sentence. I have yet to find a picture of the interior of an m6 so we can't confirm or deny there is anything special about the internals. The thing is 140 years old for lands sake! Enough nostalgia there given the current human life expectancy being dropped to the mid 20's

[Cabel]

I don't see any problem with nostalgia, since in my book it outweighs the "life expectancy" during the Human-Covenant War. I say, tento125 should have fun with their character. I mean, even in the books, Jacob Keyes keeps track of an old tobacco pipe more out of nostalgia.

[Faclan]

This is why I'm glad we have a community because I know about guns n such but would have had no idea aboutt he Bridge offer thing, so good job everyone

And Edto because its supposed to be an old family thing so I think it would be fine if its low powered. It would not be for taking on shields anyway as you wouldn't want only that against a big Jelly. But it would be fully lethal against unshielded targets like Unggoys and Kig-Yar so long as you don't shoot them in the chest where they have all their armor. Its supposed to be a back-up weapon anyway and not somthing pulled out for boarding.

But Seraph is correct even if we go off just what we have now;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_Concepts_1911_DMLS
This was 3d printed in 2013 and has fired over 5000 rounds with no problem. While things like the springs and barrel would probably need to be replaced over time and the frame and finish would probably need to be updated the heart of the 1911 could easily survive over the years at least in bits a pieces. It could even be basiucally an entirely new gun that is in 2550, maybe in a different caliber as Edto suggested, but its been in the family forever and just updated when needed. While yes the .45 caliber bullet would still kill in the future the owner of the updated 1911 may want to change its caliber. It would probably hold less rounds but it would just need new magazines and barrel to make it work. It would just probably cost a bit more from the factory to get a specific peice from a no-longer in production weapon. But I'm sure the blueprints would be easily obtainable by facroties in the future and it would just be a matter if punching in the dimensions to the CAD or 3d printer. Even though I think that somthing as classic and loved as the 1911 (even the Glock series are much loved today) would still be in production in some form 500 years from now as we as Humans often have issues moving on from things we like. Successful designs would probably be available on Waypoint to gun manufactures.

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

How I see it, his current proposal is that his character has a weapon, that has been with his family for numerous generations that he carries on himself as a personal good luck charm/ worst case scenario item. A 45 ACP has enough stopping power to stop an unarmored enemy, and force anything else (minus an elite) from mindlessly advancing on him. I honestly don't see a problem with it. I've seen far more fragile items that are family heirlooms that survived hundreds of years in real life, a perfect example is (I don't know what it's called but it's one of those decorative carpet looking things you hold on the wall) that has his family's coat of arms on it. He informed me that it's almost 200 years old. So I don't see how an M1911 couldn't survive that long if a carpet like decoration can.

[Cabel]

I think the word you're looking for, Yappa's, is "mural" or "tapestry".

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

Jan 9, 2016 20:20:19 GMT -6 Cabel said:

I think the word you're looking for, Yappa's, is "mural" or "tapestry".

I think that's it, Thank you Cabel 

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

Jan 9, 2016 20:29:45 GMT -6 @tracker said:

Jan 9, 2016 20:09:27 GMT -6 Guardian Cat of Yappa's said:

How I see it, his current proposal is that his character has a weapon, that has been with his family for numerous generations that he carries on himself as a personal good luck charm/ worst case scenario item. A 45 ACP has enough stopping power to stop an unarmored enemy, and force anything else (minus an elite) from mindlessly advancing on him. I honestly don't see a problem with it. I've seen far more fragile items that are family heirlooms that survived hundreds of years in real life, a perfect example is (I don't know what it's called but it's one of those decorative carpet looking things you hold on the wall) that has his family's coat of arms on it. He informed me that it's almost 200 years old. So I don't see how an M1911 couldn't survive that long if a carpet like decoration can.

It's not a debate about if he can have it or not. Dave said he could, but it's a debate about the viability of having it. Which is kinda redundant but still... Is what it is.

I meant it in part as a response to the original issue and in response to what Edto said as well, though I guess I should have made that more clear shouldn't I 

[SPARTAN-A120]

If M14s, M3 Grease Guns, M1 Carbines and Garands, and other firearms deep in the past can be used in the 26th Century (citation: The Hero's Ball), then a M1911 is feasable. As long as it is regularly serviced, cleaned, and maintained properly, you can use it until a part breaks (most likely the slide of the barrel under continuous fire).

Firearms are like cars. They both have service lives. Firearms are measured in the amount of rounds and cars are measured in the mileage. Both of these can be "altered" through care and service as cars can run beyond a 200,000 limit and the average pistol can go through 15,000 rounds if it isn't taking part of an stress tests/torture tests where a user intends to fire the weapon until it breaks.

Of course a M1911 would be antique in the 26th Century, but it doesn't mean enthusiasts from a random planet can't produce custom made parts to replace the broken parts. They are out there and as long and it is possible.

[Faclan]

Outdated stuff like that would probably be cheap and rusty by this time - I'm sure Innies have a bunch of that kinda thing and some of them have the skills or basic know how to fix them up again to be workable. Hence one of the reasons I suggested the BARS system could be an Innie thing for older Humans weapons that dont have the magical recoil mitigation tech of the current UNSC weapons.

But pretty sure Tento has it down now, that he can have it as long as it suddenly doesn't become his primary weapon

[MrKill]

Since when was a human life exectancy just his 20's?

[edtosivaree]

Jan 9, 2016 21:46:43 GMT -6 MrKill said:

Since when was a human life exectancy just his 20's?

It was a joke based on the human casualties of the war. That wasn't serious.

[David]

I dunno, During the Covenant war, Most young soldiers didn't live past 20's lol.