Mission 8 OOC

[Faclan]

Since I noticed that we didn't have one of these thought why not make one?

Here you can put your questions that you may have about the current mission so we can all enjoy and understand the mission to the best of our ability.

[MrKill]

Good catch, Faclan. Thanks for making the thread.

[SPARTAN-A120]

There has been some confusion on the UNSC side of things which is not following the original plan.

This was the plan discussed by Kill as Col. Killinger in the briefing before M8 had started:

"Stage two will start when Echo, Foxtrot, Golf and Hotel companies are on the ground. Echo and Foxtrot will approach from the road on the left while Golf and Hotel approach from the road on the right. Meanwhile the 153rd ODSTs and 53rd Combat Engineers will approach from the north of the titanium mine. Be careful of your cross fire."

Read more: yappashalorpg.com/thread/11506/m8-pre-mission-planning-unsc#ixzz3bdJiPjgv

Basically, it is a 3 sided attack with Echo and Foxtrot coming in from the West, Golf and Hotel coming from the East, and the 153rd ODSTs and 53rd CEs coming down the North.

In order for the FOB to be constructed, the Titanium Mines MUST BE CAPTURED BY UNSC FORCES.

According to the posts in M8 so far, we have already engaged in combat with Huka and Tin's Covenant Force with Wraiths and Ghost support, Faclan's Champion is trying to initiate the rescue of the trapped Covvie Scout force to the South, mountainous region of the Mines via Air Shafts, and a Pack of Jiralhanae is elsewhere, in progress of Capturing Charlie FOB (exact location is unknown due to the lack of a map marker).

Any questions can be asked and cleared up by staff and anyone with good knowledge of the mission so far.

And please read both UNSC and Covenant Pre-Mission Planning Threads in addition to all posts made in the M8 Mines and Spaces Threads and M8 Information for a description of the Area.

[MrKill]

Yes.

We've jumped the gun a bit, both the Covenant and UNSC. The Marines have not engaged - this means that there should be no combat between the UNSC and the Covenant in any post, so if you have included combat please edit your posts accordingly, the Marines are just now starting their assault.

[SPARTAN-A120]

Wait... Echo Company can see Kael Gel's Entourage behind the mountain from our POV?

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

Upon Close examination, yes, but if a marine was just to look at the mountain, he/she wouldn't notice anything. If you re read Cabel's post, he explains that he was examining the mountain when he noticed that something was off, in which case he magnified his zoom, and as in Faclan's first post, the mountain side doesn't have much cover. So they are rather easy to spot actually.

[Faclan]

Ummm, hang on a second. From my understanding the Humans were around the front of the mine, near the entrance to where the trapped Covenant were...Kael and her forces are on the other side of the mountain. No matter how hard you would look and zoom and enhance from the front you aren't going to be seeing Kael's forced or their Phantom. Thats why they are only going down five shafts because the rest were too close. If you saw them from an aerial position or from physically going around the mountain to see them thats fine, but just 'seeing' them from the front would be impossible since theres a big ass mountain in the way.

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

Jun 7, 2015 20:12:32 GMT -6 Faclan said:

Ummm, hang on a second. From my understanding the Humans were around the front of the mine, near the entrance to where the trapped Covenant were...Kael and her forces are on the other side of the mountain. No matter how hard you would look and zoom and enhance from the front you aren't going to be seeing Kael's forced or their Phantom. Thats why they are only going down five shafts because the rest were too close. If you saw them from an aerial position or from physically going around the mountain to see them thats fine, but just 'seeing' them from the front would be impossible since theres a big ass mountain in the way.

Hey I'm just going off the information from Cabel and MrKill posts<------------ 

[Cabel]

Taking Kael's position with her forces on the other side of the mountain, we could say that there were other Kig-Yar forces that were in the same thought and took up position on the opposite slopes. I didn't mean to meta-game, mind you. I had assumed that even though Kael's forces were on the other slopes, that there would be some other Kig-Yar in the direction of both Echo and Foxtrot's positions.

I didn't mention Kael, or a Kig-Yar of that description anyways. *Shrugs*

[Faclan]

There may be Kigs except for the fact that it was only Kael and her forces that were deployed, as the only other Covenant forces are either inside the mine or approaching the mine to do battle with the Humans who are about to try and breech into it.

[MrKill]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

The mine is an entirely flat land. The entrance to the mind itself is actually a ramp that leads into a vehicle bay. I don't know where this 'mountain' kept popping up from, so perhaps this is a failure of providing enough details. The only rise on land is more like hills nearby the mines flat land.

We'll need to do some significant editing to fix this problem.

[Cabel]

That was probably my mistake. I for some reason thought that the dirt from the mine would have built-up outside, but again we can fix that. So, the brush would be atop the mine and sparse at that? Well, if I can't get to editing my post tonight I'll see about it tomorrow night after work.

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

I'll go through and edit out the notion of the mountain with the hill sides then as well, I can do that right now.

[Faclan]

Ok then; Its not you Cabel I'm the one that said mountain in the first post.

With no big obstruction in the way the rescue operation I don't even think would have been started to be honest. When I was thinking about the mission after it being suggested to me I was trying to think of how it would realistically be possible for a force outnumbered more than ten to one to be successful in this operation. And since it was a mine I thought 'oh hey, the mountain could block vision so the sneaky operation could work'. Hence why I had mountain in the first post as I thought it would work. Same as in the Guardian Intro post thread and since it was ok-ed I assumed it fit with the location and mission. But if there wasn't a mountain in the way the rescue wouldn't be started in the first place and if some some reason it was there would have been a lot more troops and equipment sent. Because then her force would have been seen instantly and the secret rescue would be gone. Artillery or tanks or hell just snipers would shoot at the Kigs since they arrived before the main Covie force showed up. And then they would all be dead.

Awkward. Don't know what to do now really if theres nothing stopping them being seen - since the gun happy Humans would have just blown them up or snipped them silly from the start before turning their attention to the other Covies.

[MrKill]

Phantoms are known to be able to be cloaked. Honestly, I thought [as I read it somewhere] that's what was happening. To the naked eye it would be hard to detect. When I read Cabel's post I thought he saw the shimmering of the cloaked phantom in a way and interpreted 'mountain' as a 'mountain of dirt' like he depicted in his post, not an entire mountain that cuts off view of the other side. It's largely my fault and I take the blame for not moderating correctly and actively.

Change your post, Faclan, so that you deploy down an airshaft a... kilometer away from the mines towards the south. That way the Marines would have been able to detect you but unable to do anything about it really.

[Faclan]

Even if the Phantoms were cloaked the T'vaoan's and them have now been seen, and a kilometer wouldn't stop SRS99's or tanks hitting them (Since the longest confirmed Sniper kill today is 2475 meters, way more than a kilometer and the SRS is a lot more advanced than the rifles now). Scoprions would also have no trouble hitting the T'vaoans from that far with computers and explosive shells (since most tanks today can go 4k+ meters with near perfect precision). And that ain't even mentioning the artillery if there is any, or the aircraft, or just sending some people over in warthogs.

And part of the rescue is for the T'vaoans to stay on the surface to pull out the Covies when the ones that went down the shafts find them, if they just all leave the equipment on theres no way to activate the machines from inside the mine. Even if they all went in the mine they have been seen now, so Humans could just saunter over there and break the machines and cut the ropes - then the Kigs are trapped in the death trap as well.

[MrKill]

If they're a KM away, the Marines aren't going to sabotage the ropes or waste their precious bullets to range the shots even for a sniper rifle or tank. They don't have a continuous supply of ammunition, the most the Marines can do is acknowledge that the Covenant have given reinforcements to the trapped scout force. Perhaps they'd call an airstrike, but right now, that seems highly unlikely with the wave of Phantoms and Banshees coming in with Huka's unit.

[Faclan]

The rope and machine sabotage was in response to if the T'vaoans all went down the mine since there would be nothing stopping the Humans except for the Phantoms, which could easily be shot by the tanks too, but going down wasn't the plan I was just mentioning it.


And why and why?

- Why would the Humans not use ammo on the Covenant they can see when the other Covenant force hasn't engaged them yet and the ones they can see could be trying to get more troops to fight the Humans? I remember while we were discussing the 'realism' of Flight of Faith you were very adamant that Humans would take any chance they had to shoot at the evil Aliens. And these ones seem preoccupied and therefore easier targets to hit. At least until they actually start firing.

- Why would they need to use ammo to zero the guns on them when they are only a kilometer away? Modern sniper scopes today are often graduated out to that far; These are from the Russian SVD sniper rifle.


And the SVD just uses a 'normal' bullet. While the SRS sniper system in halo uses a much larger, faster, fin stabilized round so it would drop even less. I'm sure there is some kind of laser or range adjuster in the large SRS scope or in the Spotters range finder that would do all the adjustment for you. Even today there are PDA's carried by sniper teams that work out windage and drop for you, in 2550 thats probably integrated into the scope or Spotters viewfinder.

Tanks also have computers in them that would make any small barrel adjustments needed to shell them from that far, though with how much force is behind the shells I doubt it would drop much at all over a thousand meters.


Just think that were going to need something a bit more to not have Kael's forces obliterated or picked off. Or just have them leave.

[MrKill]

- Why would the Humans not use ammo on the Covenant they can see when the other Covenant force hasn't engaged them yet and the ones they can see could be trying to get more troops to fight the Humans? I remember while we were discussing the 'realism' of Flight of Faith you were very adamant that Humans would take any chance they had to shoot at the evil Aliens. And these ones seem preoccupied and therefore easier targets to hit. At least until they actually start firing.

First of all, Flight of Faith didn't take place a kilometer apart. It took part on a vessel not even a kilometer long, Tracker's ship was roughly just under six hundred meters. So, when I said humans would take the chance to shoot the opposition, the range was acceptable to where the majority of the bullets they fired actually hit their targets. Fifty meters is HUUUUUGE difference to one thousand meters.

After eight hundred meters, the round the 'humans' use looses its effective velocity and starts to drop. Marines armed with MA5s and BR55s aren't going to engage you at over a thousand kilometers, besides, it's not like many Marines even posses the scope required to see that far.

- Why would they need to use ammo to zero the guns on them when they are only a kilometer away? Modern sniper scopes today are often graduated out to that far; These are from the Russian SVD sniper rifle.

And the SVD just uses a 'normal' bullet. While the SRS sniper system in halo uses a much larger, faster, fin stabilized round so it would drop even less. I'm sure there is some kind of laser or range adjuster in the large SRS scope or in the Spotters range finder that would do all the adjustment for you. Even today there are PDA's carried by sniper teams that work out windage and drop for you, in 2550 thats probably integrated into the scope or Spotters viewfinder.

Tanks also have computers in them that would make any small barrel adjustments needed to shell them from that far, though with how much force is behind the shells I doubt it would drop much at all over a thousand meters.


Just think that were going to need something a bit more to not have Kael's forces obliterated or picked off. Or just have them leave.

I'm well aware of how a snipers scope works, but I'm also well aware how the modern day ballistic looses momentum and energy after eight hundred meters - not much has changed 500 years into the future because the humans are STILL using a 7.62x51mm NATO round. It's not about the power of the scope, Faclan, it's about the ability and grade of the round being fired from the rifle.

If you want to get technical... The Dragunov SVD fires a 7.62x54mm rimmed round that looses, as I said above, it's combat effectiveness at eight hundred meters. A good two hundred meters from the kilometer [or further if you wanted it] your troops would be. The rounds fired in the MA5 series rifle is a 7.62x51mm NATO - while it has a similar combat effective range - it doesn't have the same bullet ballistics as the rimmed round listed earlier.

While the SRS does fire a 14.5x114mm round, you have to realize sniper teams are only going to be carrying a combat load of ammunition. Each one of their magazines only carries four individual rounds, and they're not carrying many magazines due to the sheer size of both the round and box magazine required for the munition the rifle fires. As a result, even though the Marines have the ability, they need to engage targets that will actually turn the battle in their favor. High value targets, or HVTs. Snipers don't just go around shooting things because they have a big gun, a big bullet and deadly precision. That is a game mechanic that isn't realistic. Snipers are trained to engage targets that either threaten their fellow servicemen/women and important targets.

Tanks, while having more available ammo, have a more precious ammunition. A SRS-99 cannot take out a Wraith, unless shot through the reactor in the back, but a tank can. In the games the tanks have unlimited ammunition because that's the way the game was made, but the Scorpion fires a 90mm high velocity explosive round. Judging by the shell size disposed in Halo: Reach... the scorpions turret - where the ammunition would be stored for loading - wouldn't carry more than thirty rounds. The tanks breach would occupy most of the turret, not to mention the auto-load mechanism would take up quite a bit of room as well.

While it's true the tanks round wouldn't degrade at the distance, there are many variables that take place here on Yappas. Those variables include wind, angle of impact and penetration of the round. High chances are, because the 90mm is a smaller round, they'll just bounce off the very well angled Phantom at that distance.

In game they explode on contact at any range because it's a high explosive round, but realistically, that's not how they work. In close, yes, it would look how it looks in game. But at that distance the HE Timer wouldn't be activated on impact, so the round would bounce harmlessly away before the rounds timer actually cooked the HE filler off. The tank would have to hit a flat part of the dropship, but that's a very high risk shot.

Might as well just call an airstrike or artillery barrage instead.

[Faclan]

I think you're missing the point of the FoF comparison, I was saying that because you said the Humans wouldn't shoot at the T'vaoans in this thread, but you were very adamant that ever soldier has been trained from boot to kill murder kill the aliens, so I was saying that based on what you said the Humans would take the shots. Especially since these T'vaoans, if looked at through a scope, would clearly be trying to rescue the troops trapped in the mine.

Why are you bringing up normal marines and their assault rifles that don't have any kind of scope when I was talking about sniper rifles specifically? Yes, their auto matic fire wouldn't be very effective at a 1000 meters. But even if they start to drop, as all rounds do, they don't slow down to none-lethal speeds immediately and I'm sure even the Assault rifle round could kill and wound at that range if you got a lucky shot. Especially since 7.62mm is a full sized rifle round not something intermediate like 5.56mm. It wouldn't be going full speed, but the SVD and rounds like it are still very deadly at that slightly slower speed. But I was talking about the SRS and their rounds, and yeah they may not have a million rounds at their disposal but from what I saw in the thread so far you are setting up a base. More ammunition would be on the way or inside there. And in regards to the tank rounds not blowing up on contact with the PHANTOM (Not Wraith) I really doubt they wouldn't explode because the Phantom's sides are angled / on both sides. So even if the tank shell didn't explode when hitting a shallow angle like that (I think it would) it would be knocked into the ground, and then explode there.

I would also appreciate if you stop saying really obvious things like 'not unlimited ammo', I know that, it seems pretty rude.

And yes, you are correct about the air strike and artillery as well, both of those would result in pretty much the complete decimation of Kael and her troops. Hence why I was trying to find something else for the thread rather than having them just be far out, because that won't be enough by itself, because they can and now have been seen.

[MrKill]

You completely missed my point on why I said that in Flight or Faith. In my opinion, judging on what we know about the Halo Universe, the UNSC would have executed your Kig-Yar that helped repair a UNSC warship. It's not that the Marines don't want to engage, they're at a distance where it's not logical for anyone but snipers.

I'll reply to the rest of the comment later, but I wanted to clear that up.

[Faclan]

Ok well I've already explained why I disagree on that (combat situation versus survival(like we saw with the Flood)) so I'll just leave that.

But the fact still remains Kill that the snipers and the tanks can and possibly may shoot Kael's troops or their Phantoms. More so the Phantoms because they are larger targets and more of a direct threat to the UNSC since they can lift off the ground and be used to fire at them. I just want to understand what the basic idea is so I can continue to post. If they are just going to be seen and ignored (unlikely because of reasons mentioned higher) that's fine. If they are going to have pot shots taken at them (likely) that's fine. If the tanks are gona take some shots at the Phantoms and then them (likly) that's fine. I'd just prefer to know and have some kind of basic plan going so I can continue posting.

Just to try and avoid having some more of the massive confusion that's happened already.

[MrKill]

And I return to the fact the role of a sniper isn't to shoot everything they see. Usually a sniper needs clearance to fire, and they've received it, but even then they've been trained to - as I said - fire at high ranking targets first. The reason the tanks aren't going to fire at the Covenant phantoms is because they're not a ground to air type of unit. That's why the Marines have rockets, missiles, SAMs, other planes, and things like that.

In Halo: The Flood the tanks on the ground wait for the troops to actually deploy from the dropships before engaging. Meanwhile, the scavenged auto cannons from the Pillar of Autumn are used for their role. They destroyed a dropship, something a starships point defense guns are meant for.

Does it seem logical if a Marine in a M1A2 Abrams shot at a helicopter hovering a kilometer away?

[BetaWülf]

I'm a tad confused and would like to add some questions and points if that's alright.

To my knowledge, the Phantoms are literally landed and are on the ground, not hovering. So would the tanks shoot at them while landed, since they've deployed their troops and would be a ground to ground thing like you said?

Also, if the Snipers are supposed to take out higher ranking targets, if given the order(as I realize that is required still), wouldn't they be shooting at the Murmillos and Commandos to break leadership, especially since they're bringing more troops to the fight from inside the mine?

[SPARTAN-A120]

This map may get us back on the right track.

[Kart]

Could someone please put FOB Charlie somewhere on the map? I'd like to know where half the Covie characters are...

[MrKill]

Okay, this should clear the confusion up.

Right now, Faclan's troops are - say - roughly three kilometers from the Marines position, deploying onto the ground, and using air shafts to descend. His dropships are landed, not hovering. At the distance/range of 3km no one is going to engage Faclan's troops. This should be okay, and hopefully prove to have less editing. Snipers can engage, but they're not going to, because at the range of 3, 000m is further than even in game canon suggests.

The Marines are pushing in on the mines starting now, there has been no direct combat at the mines as of yet, but it's about to begin. My Colonel has ordered the advance to all his units, while he is aware of Huka's reinforcements coming in with his own force. I believe Huka's force will be deploying closer than Faclan's troops, while TinCanHitman and a few members of Huka's forces are already near the mine in a scout capacity.

At the FOB and other areas are organized good enough, it's just the Mines that needs to be reorganized here.

The map is being updated to include the FOBs location, but for reference sake right now it's just up the road from the radioactive mines.

[Faclan]

Wouldn't really call that clearing confusion more so than just giving a new plan. But that sound work.

This is a big ass mine.

[MrKill]

hold up a second... again.

Huka is your entire force already at the mines? That's not supposed to be how it is. The UNSC deployed first, the whole thing was supposed to be the UNSC being attacked as they arrived at the mines since they have and currently own orbital supremacy... meanwhile you had to sit in a dropship for hours as you deployed thousands of kilometers away from the planet.

[Huka]

No, they are not at the mines for engagement yet. Sadly I did not know -or properly told - about this latter part of sitting in a dropship. Details are just aren't in the frontlines for this mission! Things happen though. Okay, what is the overall scheme of things, because I am a particular lose honestly on what the mission 'line' is going for. Better to have this discussion now while we're scrambling about it and end this stream of tension right.