Heretic Faction.

[BetaWülf]

Ok, so in the Cbox there was a heated discussion(I admit most of the heat came from me) about whether or not we CAN or SHOULD make a small playable Heretic Faction, since we already have playable Insurrectionists.

I am only addressing my side of the debate in my intro post.

Firstly, I think we CAN have a Heretic Faction, and I think we SHOULD have one. For starters, how is it fair to only allow Human Rebels and Not Alien Rebels? I personally find it unfair to those he cannot/do not enjoy/are able to play Humans.

Secondly, it is brought up that that it wouldn't be "Realistic" to have a Heretic Faction, since the Covenant is so hell bent on rooting them out and would in theory destroy them. Realistically, our UNSC Navy wouldn't win so drastically in Space. Realistically, most if not all of our PC Unggoy would be dead by now. Realistically, our Covenant Soldiers wouldn't be so friendly with one another. "Realistically" is a pretty loose thing on Yappa's, despite our best efforts.

Thirdly, the COVENANT does have Heretics. Just because Sese 'Refumee's were the best known, does not mean other groups do not exist. There are many disobediences within the Covenant on a regular basis. In Yappa's Canon, there have been two Jiralhanae disobediences right in a row, and an entire Legions worth of Sangheili, Mgalekgolo, Kig-yar, and Unggoy were Heretics in the Unit Mission.

Fourthly, it is pretty common knowledge we make our own Canon. So we CAN make a Heretic Faction, as it wouldn't be breaking established Halo Canon. This is an idea that could be fun and adventurous, and it cant hurt to try it out anymore than it can hurt to try out a Human Insurrectionist Faction, which we currently are doing.

A point of confussion.

Some people seem to be thinking by "Heretic Faction", we are talking about a massive Faction like the UNSC and Covenant. That couldn't be farther from the truth. We are talking about a small scale and tenacious Heretic Faction, limited and not ridiculously huge, just like our Insurrectionist Faction.

They aren't going to be taking part in massive, and will not be squashing their enemies like insects. They will undermining Covenant efforts and engaging them on a small scale, just like the Human Insurrectionists.

In fact, the Heretics ARE Insurrectionists. They have the same general goal and operate very similarly.

---

So, post your thoughts for and against this. And remember, this is meant to be a friendly debate, I myself will be keeping this greatly in mind with each of my responses.

[Remnant]

Definitely For.

[MrKill]

I don't like it; here is why:

The main and primary reason the insurrectionists is a playable character, and please note that they are a tier four playable characters as they are insurrectionist leaders, were mainly added so they could be created to use with mission seven - which had an insurrectionist uprising in the roots with the ONI Unit Mission - however their introduction was phased off and the insurrectionists in mission seven haven't been a major plot point to M7 because no playable character is nearby to really experience it.

The playable faction was going to be removed after mission sevens completion as they'd likely not be a factor for the next mission, and everyone has seen the map for M8 (If you haven't it's up in the canon RP section), you can clearly tell it's geared specifically for a Covenant vs. UNSC battle in multiple areas around the given map.

This rendered the PC Insurrectionists obsolete and the reason none of them were made.

As for the Covenants multiple 'disobediences', which we've broken canon for, were plot elements to give the Covenant something to do other than fighting humans and retrieving an artifact. Ultimately that plot point was a mistake I am keen on not making again, like we have previously. A large part of the Halo Universe for the Covenant is pushing humanity back, and unfortunately that means the same old 'attack planet, kill humans, potentially retrieve artifact' for both authors and game play.

We try to spice things up, hence the disobedience arch, so it's not that 'attack planet, blah, blah, blah' stuff the members are getting bored of. No one wants to make each other angry so we've gone with the flow but when people go 'we need new content' they expect the staff - in which you know BetaW - to make new innovative or interesting stories, and that means we start to lose a grip on what has been provided by Halo's canonical universe.

In canon the earliest actual heretic group I could find, and this starts from the start of the human-covenant war (not prior) was in 2552 during Halo 2, we all know that as the 'Great Schism'.

Just because we can break canon doesn't mean we should break canon. It's an excuse to add something you want into the RP, and while it can be justified, it's usually something that's not needed or achieved in some other form either now or at a later time - queue the actual heretic faction in 2552 after the battle of Installation 04.

Now what I would agree with is ending the whole rebellious mini-uprisings within the Covenant by creating a board, allowing people to NPC heretics, and then killing them off for a while. This would simulate and officially finish what happened in the unit mission. Obviously all the heretics that are being NPC'd would be killed.

Heretics and/or disobedience shouldn't be a story arch until the appropriate time.

That's just my opinion.

[Llau]

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

I don't like it; here is why:

The main and primary reason the insurrectionists is a playable character, and please note that they are a tier four playable characters as they are insurrectionist leaders, were mainly added so they could be created to use with mission seven - which had an insurrectionist uprising in the roots with the ONI Unit Mission - however their introduction was phased off and the insurrectionists in mission seven haven't been a major plot point to M7 because no playable character is nearby to really experience it.

<_< Would've been great if those who made Insurrectionists for the ONI Unit Mission didn't leave for a while (RL problems, college/ etc), then the thread wouldn't have died so fast. Oh well...people can't help it when RL things get in the way of fun. :<

Regardless...I'm having fun NPC-ing the Insurrectionists in M7 with the plot I'm going for with Fac, BetaW, Tracker, Lax and Doc now. >_>



As for a Heretic Faction...hmmm...I don't know, BetaW...I'm on the fence with this. Back in 2005, Llau was created to be part of the Heretic Faction, since during the time, we were role-playing around Halo 2's timeline. So, the Great Schism happened, and maybe, that's one of the reasons why I'm waiting to finish Llau...and not just because I'm having trouble with her profile. <.<

In a way, I agree, there should be a small Heretic Faction, but also...there's like 4 years left until we do end up getting to that point in the current timeline. I'm sure people can wait for that. There's always the option to create a side rp in the sandbox...

[TinCanHitman]

I think we should allow a test run of heretics. A single ships worth, that would be VERY exclusive, I mean, trusted members, S-II level shit. I think if BetaW can prove he can handle running a miniature faction, he should be allowed. However I think it should be limited to side RPs, especially in the beginning, and that if BetaW can't keep people posting, or can't handle running it, it should be removed.

I think that as long as it's done well, and doesn't take the entire focus off the main mission, and that it doesn't become the schism, it could be interesting and fun.

This is my personal opinion.

[Daenerys Targaryen]

Alright, the dreaded heretic faction is once again rearing its head and gazing onto the site. Please watch this video, as it describes my feelings toward this idea. 






Now. The important thing is to understand why this is my reaction. I have assembled a few main points as to why I am very skeptical about this idea. 

1)History Repeating Itself.

Now, every time you open up a history textbook, the teacher often tells the students something like "the reason why we study history is so that we can improve on ourselves and avoid our past mistakes". Much can be said about this topic as well. While I am not saying repeating it will become as messy as it has been before, it is a deterrence for me that cannot be overlooked. 

In the before times, around 4-ish years ago, far before you were a member on the site BetaW, two members of the site created a heretic faction way before the timeline called for it. This seemingly innocent break of canon went wildly off course. Soon, heretics became their own name brand with their own missions, weapons, and the like. They became wildly popular, and soon everyone was making a heretic character. 

Now in regards to saying the heretics will remain a "small thorn" in the Covenant's side is completely debatable. We have no set definition for the term "small thorn" when it comes to the Covenant, because the Covenant Empire is gigantic when compared to the Human's. A small thorn could lead to the capturing of an entire planet, relic sites, ect. This happened when the heretics became a faction, they took a planet and made it their home. But this lead to the eventual breakdown our site almost suffered, as we began to chip away at canon. 



2)The idea and history of "loosening/making canon" on our site.

This has historically not worked. The farther we have broken away from canon and our main timeline, the more ridiculous rp has gotten on the site. Again, my case and point is 4-ish years ago. First, we loosened the reigns on site canon by letting a member and a staff member start up a heretic faction.

This lead from a supposedly small affair to the capturing of a planet, and then the sudden revelation by the Heretics that humanity and forerunners looked alike, even though back then that hadn't been touched on by canon, and was completely made up on their end. This went as far as a massive IC main mission esque battle involving Heretic players versus Covenant players over this supposed "human-like forerunner tapestry" which is something that is not even relevant in the current Halo 5 canon. 

After this, the armory proposals section was flooded with weapon and armor designs for the heretics. This allowed for the armory to become full of weaboo fanfiction weapons such as energy throwing stars, that severely dropped the quality of characters and rp on the site. Shortly after, ONI was taken over by the very same people and destroyed before my very eyes. I have seen first hand what "loosening canon" has done to our site. 

Here are some examples of what happens when we loosen canon on this site:

*Keep in mind, these were all approved things, yes, even rping in the main missions.

• A white haired anime chick Forerunner Android with her own personal warthog sized starship
• A Forerunner monitor with a robot fighting sidekick
• A Spartan that could literally see the ghosts of dead soldiers, a gift given to her by the grim reaper
• Energy throwing stars
• A Crystal Energy Whip
• An ONI protocol that allowed ONI to arrest and demote an Admiral (this happened in rp)
• The UNSC meeting the Flood in the early 2540's, and going inside a shield world (Former Site Canon M4)
• 3 starships copy-pasted from the battle star galactica wiki

3)Why "I want it" isn't a good reason.

When heretics became a things, before they were supposed to be, the entire site began to drift toward "Making what I want NOW" instead of "Making something cool over what we are currently able to use or fits". This made things like heretics a commodity, a character to be owned rather than a character to make a fulfilling story arch with. 

Right now, making a Heretic faction just doesn't work. 

This site was never about getting characters because you want them, getting spiffy armor because you want it, ect. This site has been about creating a story from what we have relevant to that time in Halo. 




4)The effect on Covenant PC population, historically and now.

Back when the first heretic movement arose. Covenant PC players were at an all-time low, and to this day the Covenant population has not fully recovered from what the first heretic movement did to it. 

When the heretics came out, people became focused on creating Heretic leaders, Heretic warriors, heretic ships. And you know what happened? Those who became heretics general stopped playing their Covenant characters. Why? Because no one wants to rp against themselves, and if every heretic player has a Covenant player, then they will at one point have to fight themselves. 

Due to this, interest in Covenant dropped so dangerously low, that only around two to three people were still actively playing Covenant characters during the peak of the heretic movement. This officially signaled the Death of the Covenant Navy, something we have still not yet recovered from. 




5) Why Might Insurrectionists work and Covenant not work?

We have an overabundance of human characters on this site, whether they are civilian, Marines, in Space, or in ONI, the number of human PC's far outnumbers the actual active Covenant players in rp. 

Insurrectionists work, because they can be allowed without a major dip in UNSC playership, mainly because they are generally delt with by ONI, which would realistically be the Innie counter balance. 

There is no counter balance to a Heretical alien movement, and those of us who have been here for more than two years can attest to the fact that without a counter balance, heretic factions end in disaster. 




6) Contrary to your belief, Insurrectionists are not a thing. 

If I am not mistaken, there is currently one approved insurrectionist character in the entirety of the site. On top of that, those characters were made to interact in two specific side missions, one of which is known to all of us. The first was the ONI mission that was unfortunately abandoned due to my inability to continue its movement forward.

Besides this, and the NPC insurrectionists in M7, there is no active faction of insurrectionists whatsoever. When I and the others formulated the ONI side mission, Insurrectionists were an element of the story, nothing more or nothing less. They were never actually going to become a faction on their own, at least until we ever decided to go Post War.

This invalidates the idea that the site is owed Heretics, because the site does not have an insurrectionist faction up and running, one approved character does not bring about a faction. 



7) Why build heretics when you can repair the Covenant?

Pardon me if I sound rude, but you are sitting here, arguing for a heretic faction, when the Covenant faction is currently the most lacking main faction on this site. Instead of encouraging people to make heretics, you as a Covenant based mod especially, should be encouraging people to make Covenant characters and actively play them. 

While we have human tank brigades, pilots, ship captains, ect., we have exactly 0 of that being actively rp'ed on the Covenant side. Covenant PC's should be encouraging people to join the Covenant. Encourage them to make scarabs, ship masters, banshee and phantom pilots.

Instead of demanding a heretic faction, should we not first repair the Covenant faction that was destroyed almost beyond repair due to the first heretical movement on this site?

Try to bring back the Covenant, don't try to dilute it further by adding yet another faction of unaligned Covenant species. We already have Kig-yar pirates, and as you can tell, those are hardly rp'ed either. Instead of adding in yet another non-Covenant aligned faction, you all should be trying your hardest to repair the Covenant to what it use to be on this site. Which was an actual force to be reckoned with, and not some NPC punching bag crap that it has become. 



8) On a completely unrelated side note... 

Your main supporter so far has been recently arguing for a Covenant Wet Navy. 


9) What I approve of..

I approve of using a small group of exclusively picked heretics meant for adding an element to the story. Though as Kill stated, keep them NPC's, just like we did for the M7 Unit mission. Therefor, you can have the fun of a story arch, without devastating the Covenant population. 

[BetaWülf]

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

Just because we can break canon doesn't mean we should break canon. It's an excuse to add something you want into the RP, and while it can be justified, it's usually something that's not needed or achieved in some other form either now or at a later time - queue the actual heretic faction in 2552 after the battle of Installation 04.

I'm not making an "excuse" to add something I want, as if I am doing this solely for myself out selfishness. Myself, Darknal, Samuel Murray, and Laxknight have all expressed interest in this. I do not appreciate being made to look self-serving, as I am trying to add something for everyone to enjoy. And as I have said multiple times, this is not breaking Canon.

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

As for the Covenants multiple 'disobediences', which we've broken canon for, were plot elements to give the Covenant something to do other than fighting humans and retrieving an artifact. Ultimately that plot point was a mistake I am keen on not making again, like we have previously. A large part of the Halo Universe for the Covenant is pushing humanity back, and unfortunately that means the same old 'attack planet, kill humans, potentially retrieve artifact' for both authors and game play.

This is not breaking Canon. There have been at least Sixteen recorded instances of Unggoy Disobedience, hence the Sixteenth Unggoy Disobedience which can be found here.

Also, you have the Jiralhanae who fled during the Fall of Reach, the Chieftain Parabum forsaking the Covenant in an act of disobedience and disregarding and defying orders.

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

In canon the earliest actual heretic group I could find, and this starts from the start of the human-covenant war (not prior) was in 2552 during Halo 2, we all know that as the 'Great Schism'.

The first Rebellion occurred shortly after the Covenant was formed, and was lead by Ussa 'Xellus. And of course, we have infamous Unggoy Rebellion.

Sangheili, Jiralhanae, and Unggoy have all participated in disobedience, if not outright Rebellion.

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

Now what I would agree with is ending the whole rebellious mini-uprisings within the Covenant by creating a board, allowing people to NPC heretics, and then killing them off for a while. This would simulate and officially finish what happened in the unit mission. Obviously all the heretics that are being NPC'd would be killed.

Due to the reasons I have stated above, I would not agree with this, as I am still advocating for the Heretic Faction. Something similar could possibly work, such as "The board of Heresy" or some such, but with actual characters who don't die, in place of or addition to playable NPCs.


If we can find a viable compromise for both of us, I would be happy to go for it.

---

Feb 13, 2015 18:30:17 GMT -6 Llau said:

Feb 13, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6 MrKill said:

I don't like it; here is why:

The main and primary reason the insurrectionists is a playable character, and please note that they are a tier four playable characters as they are insurrectionist leaders, were mainly added so they could be created to use with mission seven - which had an insurrectionist uprising in the roots with the ONI Unit Mission - however their introduction was phased off and the insurrectionists in mission seven haven't been a major plot point to M7 because no playable character is nearby to really experience it.

<_< Would've been great if those who made Insurrectionists for the ONI Unit Mission didn't leave for a while (RL problems, college/ etc), then the thread wouldn't have died so fast. Oh well...people can't help it when RL things get in the way of fun. :<

Regardless...I'm having fun NPC-ing the Insurrectionists in M7 with the plot I'm going for with Fac, BetaW, Tracker, Lax and Doc now. >_>



As for a Heretic Faction...hmmm...I don't know, BetaW...I'm on the fence with this. Back in 2005, Llau was created to be part of the Heretic Faction, since during the time, we were role-playing around Halo 2's timeline. So, the Great Schism happened, and maybe, that's one of the reasons why I'm waiting to finish Llau...and not just because I'm having trouble with her profile. <.<

In a way, I agree, there should be a small Heretic Faction, but also...there's like 4 years left until we do end up getting to that point in the current timeline. I'm sure people can wait for that. There's always the option to create a side rp in the sandbox...

Which is rather unfortunate, I rather would have enjoyed seeing the Insurrectionists played out. Though, if we just went with a Side RP, it would die like all the other eventually do, and defeat the purpose of what I am trying to do, to make Canon Heretic characters which have more meaning and use. Something with a sense of purpose and something that has the potential to last.

I pretty much just want to do a Canon test run. Also, I was unaware of Llau having originally been a Heretic, the more you know ;D

As for the timeline and Sesa's Heretics in 2552, I understand the apprehension about introducing our own Heretic's before Sesa's that we see in Halo 2. But I will say this, I am not 100% sure we can use Sesa's Sangheili and Unggoy Heretics without legitimately breaking Canon. His Heretics were only present on the Threshold Gas Mine and the level Burial Mounds, and no further mention of them is made afterwards.

It is stated he sent out holographic recordings to other Sangheili to open their eyes to the truth, but whether these worked or not is, as far as I can discern, is unknown. And there are no mentions of them having any actual exploits, only Sesa having openly declared Rebellion, no actual battles, besides the Arbiter exterminating them.

So I am worried if we wait, we'll actually break Canon, instead of adding to Yappa's Canon as I was hoping for.

[Remnant]

Feb 13, 2015 20:13:54 GMT -6 Daenerys Targaryen said:

Your main supporter so far has been recently arguing for a Covenant Wet Navy. 

First off, Objection, that's completely unrelated.

Second, I dropped that argument.

Third, I'm not the only "main supporter".

[Daenerys Targaryen]

Feb 13, 2015 20:52:51 GMT -6 Remnant said:

Feb 13, 2015 20:13:54 GMT -6 Daenerys Targaryen said:

Your main supporter so far has been recently arguing for a Covenant Wet Navy. 

First off, Objection, that's completely unrelated.

Second, I dropped that argument.

Third, I'm not the only "main supporter".

That isn't directed as much to you as it was to my over-arching statement against.

Fourthly, it is pretty common knowledge we make our own Canon. So we CAN make a Heretic Faction, as it wouldn't be breaking established Halo Canon.

 

That incident just happened to be another prudent example of how I disagree with how far we go as to "making our own canon".

[Remnant]

I see what you mean.

At first, I thought you were trying to insult me because of the Wet Navy thing. xD

[Daenerys Targaryen]

I am sorry if it came off that way!

[BetaWülf]

Daenerys Targaryen while I understand and know about what has happened in the past, and repeating history is generally a bad thing, we cant let it rule us and hold us back either. And it has been four-ish years, and I think that is more than enough time to warrant a second attempt.

We've evolved since then as best as I can tell, and what happened then wouldn't fly I'm pretty sure. And the idea that was had wouldn't include a planet, or anything so huge. I was thinking a ship or small station, nothing more.

As for questioning my loyalty to the Covenant, I am still loyal even though I am wanting to add a band of Heretics. Since yesterday I have gotten three people to say they shall make an Unggoy, with a fourth person interested and undecided. And I constantly suggest and advocate for the making of Covenant characters, both in Introduction threads of new members of and in the Cbox.

I am quite successful in swaying people to the side of the Covenant, if you want, ask people, I am responsible for close to a dozen PC Covenant having existed/are existing.

Feb 13, 2015 20:10:45 GMT -6 TinCanHitman said:

I think we should allow a test run of heretics. A single ships worth, that would be VERY exclusive, I mean, trusted members, S-II level shit. I think if BetaW can prove he can handle running a miniature faction, he should be allowed. However I think it should be limited to side RPs, especially in the beginning, and that if BetaW can't keep people posting, or can't handle running it, it should be removed.

I think that as long as it's done well, and doesn't take the entire focus off the main mission, and that it doesn't become the schism, it could be interesting and fun.

This is my personal opinion.

I would be ok with this. I didn't even want them in Main Missions anyway unless for an actual reason. Just one band Heretics, nice, small and simple.

[MrKill]

I'm not making an "excuse" to add something I want, as if I am doing this solely for myself out selfishness. Myself, Darknal, Samuel Murray, and Laxknight have all expressed interest in this. I do not appreciate being made to look self-serving, as I am trying to add something for everyone to enjoy. And as I have said multiple times, this is not breaking Canon.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgUT8RVV

That was not what the excuse was. I did not mean to make you look selfish or self-serving, that is merely the way you interpreted it. That was not my intention, I'm saying that using the excuse 'We have our own canon!' shouldn't be played every time there is a proposal or idea that member(s) want. You'll notice at the beginning of my sentence I did put 'just because we can break canon doesn't mean we should' - I realize the rebellions are canon but after 2525 there are no canonical events that have occurred that support another one is or could take place.

This is not breaking Canon. There have been at least Sixteen recorded instances of Unggoy Disobedience, hence the Sixteenth Unggoy Disobedience which can be found here.

Also, you have the Jiralhanae who fled during the Fall of Reach, the Chieftain Parabum forsaking the Covenant in an act of disobedience and disregarding and defying orders.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgVM4rHS

Perhaps I'm doing a bad job on relaying the context in my replies. My context is canon during the human-covenant war and not before. I realize there is a potential for uprisings and heretics from before but that's not what I am focusing on and your article just proves my point more.

Notice how he fled during the Battle of Reach in 2552, where the Covenant were already in the beginning phase of the schism.

The first Rebellion occurred shortly after the Covenant was formed, and was lead by Ussa 'Xellus. And of course, we have infamous Unggoy Rebellion.

Sangheili, Jiralhanae, and Unggoy have all participated in disobedience, if not outright Rebellion.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgXQyHhc

Again, I'm not stating it isn't possible there aren't heretics within the Covenant's society. However, if you didn't read what I said, I couldn't find examples of heresy between 2525 until 2552. The rebellions and disobedience topics you've linked took place when humanity was still in the archaic age.

Due to the reasons I have stated above, I would not agree with this, as I am still advocating for the Heretic Faction. Something similar could possibly work, such as "The board of Heresy" or some such, but with actual characters who don't die, in place of or addition to playable NPCs.


If we can find a viable compromise for both of us, I would be happy to go for it.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgXz45L2

I will try to find a compromise with you but I'm not willing to allow a heretic faction from expanding like it did in the past. Daenerys Targaryen made some excellent points. We need to mend the holes with the current Covenant roster before diluting it further with heretics.

If the heretics become playable they would have, as TinCanHitman stated, SPARTAN-like restrictions.

[Daenerys Targaryen]

Feb 13, 2015 21:09:02 GMT -6 BetaWülf said:

Daenerys Targaryen while I understand and know about what has happened in the past, and repeating history is generally a bad thing, we cant let it rule us and hold us back either. And it has been four-ish years, and I think that is more than enough time to warrant a second attempt.

We've evolved since then as best as I can tell, and what happened then wouldn't fly I'm pretty sure. And the idea that was had wouldn't include a planet, or anything so huge. I was thinking a ship or small station, nothing more.

As for questioning my loyalty to the Covenant, I am still loyal even though I am wanting to add a band of Heretics. Since yesterday I have gotten three people to say they shall make an Unggoy, with a fourth person interested and undecided. And I constantly suggest and advocate for the making of Covenant characters, both in Introduction threads of new members of and in the Cbox.

I am quite successful in swaying people to the side of the Covenant, if you want, ask people, I am responsible for close to a dozen PC Covenant having existed/are existing.

Feb 13, 2015 20:10:45 GMT -6 TinCanHitman said:

I think we should allow a test run of heretics. A single ships worth, that would be VERY exclusive, I mean, trusted members, S-II level shit. I think if BetaW can prove he can handle running a miniature faction, he should be allowed. However I think it should be limited to side RPs, especially in the beginning, and that if BetaW can't keep people posting, or can't handle running it, it should be removed.

I think that as long as it's done well, and doesn't take the entire focus off the main mission, and that it doesn't become the schism, it could be interesting and fun.

This is my personal opinion.

I would be ok with this. I didn't even want them in Main Missions anyway unless for an actual reason. Just one band Heretics, nice, small and simple.

I wasn't sure what I was expecting as a response, but this was a well thought out one. 

I agree with Tin's idea, and would be interested in seeing how it goes under those set restrictions.

As well as it is carefully managed, much like ONI and Innies, and not let loose of the chains, I support it. 

I appreciate what you are doing for the Covenant, and I would like to pm you about an idea that I have been brewing with Tin, to help spur Covenant activity once more. 

[Samuel Murray]

I think that if it's managed and not let wild, the heretics might bring something interesting to the table. I know that we argued about this earlier and many people know that I support the decision for a small group. I concur with Tin's general statement in at least giving it a test run and seeing what happens.

[LaxKnight]

I like the idea of getting a Heretic faction, even if it has Spartan-esque restrictions. I may not know a lot about Covies or Yappas' past but if we are going to have one, it needs to be small, like the current size of approved players for ONI, and be played by active, responsible (like staff status) members. Sure, it doesn't need to be Main Mission status right away. Hell, you could have Unit Missions like we did for ONI for the Heretics while the UNSC/Covies have their MMs and when the time comes we bring the Heretics into the MM fold. I realize this is unpopular with the veterans of this site, but I think it warrants another shot, even if it's a greatly controlled one.

[BetaWülf]

Feb 13, 2015 21:11:37 GMT -6 MrKill said:

I'm not making an "excuse" to add something I want, as if I am doing this solely for myself out selfishness. Myself, Darknal, Samuel Murray, and Laxknight have all expressed interest in this. I do not appreciate being made to look self-serving, as I am trying to add something for everyone to enjoy. And as I have said multiple times, this is not breaking Canon.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&amp;scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgUT8RVV

That was not what the excuse was. I did not mean to make you look selfish or self-serving, that is merely the way you interpreted it. That was not my intention, I'm saying that using the excuse 'We have our own canon!' shouldn't be played every time there is a proposal or idea that member(s) want. You'll notice at the beginning of my sentence I did put 'just because we can break canon doesn't mean we should' - I realize the rebellions are canon but after 2525 there are no canonical events that have occurred that support another one is or could take place.

I apologize for the misunderstanding on my part.

As for evidence of it occurring in between 2525 and 2552, I can find no conclusive evidence of large scale Heresy occurring in this specific time frame.

My only evidence of it being possible, or likely, is the fact it happens in both in the late 2470's and 2552, and the Ministry of Preservation is dedicated to eradicating dissent from the Member and Client Species of the Covenant. It is explicitly stated that Ripa 'Moramee quelled a number of uprisings under the Ministry of Preservation, meaning several uprisings happened before his incarceration.

One thing of note is, Reth and the Rubble. When Regret suspicioned him of Heresy, he dispatched Sangheili to investigate and quell it. While he was not a Heretic, it seems they were still a problem. Also, the later events inspired a Sangheili to try to kill a Hierarch, but Thel 'Vadamee prevented this by killing said Sangheili.

While I cannot find events occurring after 2525, besides Sesa's Rebellion, I feel that the evidence of prior Rebellions and Disobedience is more than enough to support the possibility. Even if only the future events happen during the Human-Covenant War, there are still several instances of it happened shortly before the Human-Covenant War too, so it seems just as common in the more recent time frame as it was in the far past.


While this is my opinion of it, I will however continue searching for any references or proof of it, and will inform you if I make any significant findings.

Feb 13, 2015 21:11:37 GMT -6 MrKill said:

Due to the reasons I have stated above, I would not agree with this, as I am still advocating for the Heretic Faction. Something similar could possibly work, such as "The board of Heresy" or some such, but with actual characters who don't die, in place of or addition to playable NPCs.


If we can find a viable compromise for both of us, I would be happy to go for it.

Read more: yappashalorpg.proboards.com/thread/11284/heretic-faction?page=1&scrollTo=100889#ixzz3RgXz45L2

I will try to find a compromise with you but I'm not willing to allow a heretic faction from expanding like it did in the past. Daenerys Targaryen made some excellent points. We need to mend the holes with the current Covenant roster before diluting it further with heretics.

If the heretics become playable they would have, as TinCanHitman stated, SPARTAN-like restrictions.

I find this most excellent and agreeable, I am 100% for this, as I also do not want it to expand like it did previously. I will continue my work on expanding the Covenant roster, but will also work on a Heretic Faction Canon proposal, in anticipation for when the Covenant roster is filled properly.

Until then I will place this on my back burners and work with others to make it work for when/if the time is right and the Covenant roster can handle it.

[Guardian Cat of Yappa's]

I just like to point out one thing missed by Beta12 in his first post, about the number of PC Innie characters (Just because it's actually a count of 3) Boarding Action, my Member generated side mission, has 2 Player controlled PCs, Though they are either gonna die, or be captured during the mission, so you could say their one time use.

[Llau]

Well, I'm all for a very small group, like Tin suggested, with restrictions.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 20:10:45 GMT -6 TinCanHitman said:

I think we should allow a test run of heretics. A single ships worth, that would be VERY exclusive, I mean, trusted members, S-II level shit. I think if BetaW can prove he can handle running a miniature faction, he should be allowed. However I think it should be limited to side RPs, especially in the beginning, and that if BetaW can't keep people posting, or can't handle running it, it should be removed.

I think that as long as it's done well, and doesn't take the entire focus off the main mission, and that it doesn't become the schism, it could be interesting and fun.

This is my personal opinion.

THIS!  I was kind of against it, I admit, but everyone has made excellent points on both sides and I think Tin has the right idea.